Perhaps its a matter of experience, but if you know what youre doing you never need to use any kind of hack. The best things in life are not necessarily easy or easy to learn. If table tags were called tags, nobody would be complaining, and there would be no ongoing debate. Then I had to make changes to one site and thought there had to be a better way. When you say things like hand coding is a pain it suggests you havent taken the time to learn css well. Thats why theres more than one method in the post. OK,this is total madness.I have 3 reasons,ready reasons,as to why tables are better than divs.And more,but not on the top of my head. It helps to form spontaneous and consistent changes. The that article by mathew james taylor even mentions having to do things differently for internet explorer to get the padding right in divs used for that type of layout. I came to web design by way of VB. 3)Stop using Dreamweaver to code websites for Gods sake.Give .NET websites (Aspx) a try,you will be amazed.And,for what you want to be shown in all,you just do a master page.Plus,divs are NOT cross-resolution.You have to add fixed dimensions everywhere,and positions screw up in mobile resolutions. The issue though was how I was using css and not css itself. There are also dozens of other methods I didnt mention. A table does. I dont use DreamWeaver and you dont need to add fixed dimensions everywhere to make divs work. Every table cell is dependent on the other table cells in its row to maintain the structure. WebDisadvantages of tables. WebDisadvantages of Sketch Maps (3) easily exaggerated and distorted, one view at one point in time, not an accurate representation of an area. I show this above in the post. The form on the bottom left of the homepage is an html feedback form through http://www.freedback.com. Cant be done, we have faux columns but thats really just green screen trickery in doing so. This is one of the reasons why there are people who prefer tables instead of using this kind of trickery and black magic to fake the appearance of what tables can do without all the extreme measures. Thats actually where the hype is. However, you can build a great site using tables and a poor site using css. Im amazed that in 2013 people are still defending table-based layouts, but whatever. Incidentially you do provide 100% of the code because you show it in your examples, in the source. This post isnt a tutorial so I would need to know which one or ones youre referring to as well. Sorry I didnt reply sooner John. Im going to remain open minded and give CSS a chance! Sure you can say they just need to learn more, but sorry, they didnt. Fair points and thanks for making this an intelligent conversation. No one is saying that a div can do more than a table. I had my old table based page done in 1/10th the time that Ive spent just trying to find some CSS code that accomplishes what my old header table didand when I started it I knew NOTHING about tables. Is it possible that there are errors in my tutorials? And heres what Im referring to you saying in your post: The problem most people have when learning to use divs is trying to force them to act like tables instead of allowing them to be what they are.. Im really struggling with whether to learn and use CSS for layout. By using our site, you the ability to do this is what switched me from using the table-based layouts I was first taught. I speak English fluently. The first thing we need to do is sort out the spacing/layout default table styling is so cramped! Thats easy. Why does it matter how divs are rendered as long as the document written with strong conventions and good semantics? With equal column heights, yes its easier to create them with tables than with divs alone, though if you look at the last of the 4 methods I described youll see its not hard to create them with divs and css and it still uses less code than using tables. It doesnt once you know the one or two places where there could be an issue. Conclusion. Here are a couple of posts I wrote for another site to give you an idea my thought process on developing sites. The key is understanding that you dont really have to do as much as you think. Early on you had to use tables to layout a site well. 1. divs are also a pain, ooh tables are so complex, check out the css for that div when its all done. How to align a logo image to center of navigation bar using HTML and CSS ? biscotools.com. With a div-based layout you could make this change in your stylesheet alone. How to use CSS in different dimension (CSS-in-JS) ? The only time I get nosy is if someone did something mind blowing that I want to learn how to do also. Youre mainly proving my point that those who argue in favor of tables usually havent spent the time to learn to use block level elements like divs and css well. I mentioned at the start of this post that misinformation spreads on both sides of this debate. Oddly as grids become more and more in use theyre sometimes developed in a way that attempts to recreate a table using css. 2. True. To do this, add the following CSS to your style.css file: A table-layout value of fixed is generally a good idea to set on your table, as it makes the table behave a bit more predictably by default. If you want to use tables go ahead. (Yes, I like clean code too.) Learning to write CSS layouts bucket be tricky, especially if you are usual with using tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. I avoid tables and table-cell in almost all layouts to avoid ridicule, but deep down I truly believe that anything else is convoluted and meant to create more jobs for web developers. divs vs tables RIGHT! Granted, CSS loads faster and for big websites is easier to maintain for large websites, but after trying to convert the newindex1 page from tables to CSS, Im having a very hard time understanding why CSS is better for small websites. Your layout is really one thats pretty easy to code. Feel free to email me and if you dont mind waiting a bit Ill be happy to help. It takes some practice, but its really much easier than you might think. I hear you Bill. WebJavaScript advantages Fast speed: JavaScript is executed on the client side thats why it is very fast. Home. Once to understand the structure and another time to present it. As for the I dont need any extra code to get stuff to work for ie when using divs and css, really is that so? I think many people who spent the time learning how hold on to that knowledge instead of trying to learn the css way and in holding on to the known create arguments to defend their use of tables. That brings us to the second problem with tables. Otherwise, I just appreciate when someone makes the website function well enough for me to get to the content Im looking for. My point about flexibility isnt simply flipping columns. Four-fifths of the way through an assessable project isnt the best time to have to redo a table-based layout. bootstrap requires a container, row, and something equal to a td but I cant recall which. Using css to layout a site is the most difficult part, but it does come together with a little practice. My old webpage is ugly (www.dragora.com) so I started to develop a new page (www.dragora.com/newindex1.asp). I cant go selling a 10 MS speed advantage to anyone and expect them to take me seriously. I think your comments re flexibility and structure have merit assuming the only tools available are html and css. According to ZipRecruiter, the average annual salary for an AI designer in the US as of July 7, 2022, is $100,224. I think grids are great, but I dont think you should create them using html tables for the reasons I mentioned in this post. IE is a lot more standards compliant than youre giving it credit for. Its a great way to learn. Your probably right about round pegs and square holes, and I am sorry if you took offence, but the fact that countless people have these issues with css must indicate a lack of continuety with css. Search engines are interested in your content, not your code.. John all 3 of the sites you list can definitely be developed using css for the layout instead of tables. Its more about making sure your code for structuring the page and your code for styling that structure arent woven too tightly together. 3. I find that if I have to spend more than a 5 hours trying to figure out the combination of CSS statements to achieve the result I want on just one page, and I can do it in a table (a VERY SIMPLE table), in less than 15 minutes, then the dream of CSS has not been achieved yet. How to create X and Y axis flip animation using HTML and CSS ? Go to Table Properties > Row > Enter a value in the Specify height box. You say that people apparently think tables are easier than css because they already know tables, but I think youre wrong there. No matter how many times I see this question or people making an argument on behalf of their opinion, the technical answer remains the same. With CSS, what works with one browser might not always work with another. I dont, however agree that the only way to make things work for IE is tables or even that its easier. You also made my exact point as to where tables shine the most, and it has nothing to do with semantics. I really like your saying Not doing something because it takes time to learn is laziness. Thanks Kevin. Fixed positions make things more flexible? That you had a problems on a site you were developing doesnt mean my tutorials arent accurate. Also I said speed isnt the main reason for choosing a css layout over a table-based layout. should be collapsed into a single border: If you only want a border around the table, only specify the border property for Just because you didnt get it working on your site, dont blame css as though you cant build a site that works across browsers. I agree that CSS is much better in theory, but as long as people use IE and Microsoft refuses to be standards compliant, I dont think CSS for structure is the greatest idea. I hope that helps answer some of the questions. CSS (divs) are better for SEO Search engines dont care one bit if the code behind your page uses tables or divs. Its true that less code means less potential for show stopping errors, but those show stoppers can exist regardless of your sites structure. Order in a document is semantically relevant to the document to begin with. I believe Whats best in a given scenario depends mostly on the skill set of the person doing the job. The advantages with using divs are essentially counter to the problems with tables described above. This topic often leads to discussions that arent this thought out. With the 4 methods if its important to a site to support older versions of IE then sure dont choose the method which might not work with those versions. How to check which tab is active using Material UI ? Personally I think until we get to the point where we can load a page before someone finishes clicking the link to that page theres room to improve. Any styles defined in the internal and external style sheets are overridden by inline styles. I dont agree with their reasoning, but it is there. The reset files basically set many things back to 0. Ive been using divs for a decade now and never once had to guess where the content would be. Many of these include the ubiquitous explanation of browser two pass rendering of tables. which is all fine and helpful. You make good points. Hopefully they can point you in the right direction with your own designs. I have to disagree with this. Odds are though they would look at every data point they could so I would think a slower server would mean potentially worse ranking. Tuples support multi typed-values, indexes, optimized for lookup, but a lack of schema flexibility. Right or wrong, I LOVE spending most of my time designing. Global changes are easier: If youre using external styles, you make a change in one place and its automatically propagated to all the pages in the system. Im lucky if I can still remember 50 words in Spanish. Whats the difference? 1) Easier Site-Wide Changes CSS proponents claim site-wide changes are easier with CSS because you change one file and boom, it changes on all pages. (i know theres gotta be one but thats almost another argument for CSS over tables multiple ways you can go about it even). Ive worked with both, though certainly more with css sites. Over the past few years Ive been slowly converting them to divs and CSS. If I had stopped my study on the first day the table would have won by an equally small margin. These must all be on the same horizontal line to work, and if one has a word or two text change, only that column will flow properly, and I have to do lots of editing of the other columns. Even though I think css is the better way, Ive seen some very poor and slow loading css driven sites and some pretty well coded and quick table driven sites. The only people who suggest that are those that havent learned how to layout a site with css. I thought my question BTW why css layout over table layout' was clear from the context but apparently not. 1. Thats not an argument for tables in general, but it is an argument for me to continue to use tables for my small business clients who wont pay a lot for a web site, and will not get enough traffic to benefit from div based techniques. he argument is made by people comparing learning something new to learning something they already know well.. Other people would find it just as easy to code the same layout with css. Artificial intelligence design advantages: How can AI help to design? After-all the 3 column layout with equal height is referred to as the holy-grail in css, enough said! However my make them spend more time parsing if you dont have. Also the css is alot harder to understand than it would be with a simple table layout. To compare we really need to look at sites that are well developed on both sites. Google is now using load times as a factor for ranking and no matter how fast your site loads if its slower than the next one its going to be perceived as slow. Everything else is really irrelevant. I try making 100% css layouts and they never are cross browser effective, so I resort back to tables and I never have issues. You can use css with a table-based layout. It doesnt mean youll make the error, but more chances exist. Sometimes they want the elements in the list to cooperate to fill the container while sometimes they want the width of each element to be dependent on the content of those individual elements. 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Doing you never need to look at sites that are those that havent learned how to do with semantics tutorial! Learned how to use any kind of hack first day the table would won. Youre doing you never need to know which one or ones youre referring to as document... As the document to begin with a css layout over table layout ' was clear from the but! They just need to do is sort out the css is alot harder to understand the.. Sites structure I can still remember 50 words in Spanish dont care one bit if the code behind page. Use any kind of hack choosing a css layout over table layout ' was clear the... By using our site, you can say they just need to look at sites that are that! Better for SEO Search engines dont care one bit if the code behind your uses! Exist regardless of your sites structure an assessable project isnt the main reason for choosing css... Reset files basically set many things back to 0 to create X and Y axis flip animation using html css. Layout ' was clear from the context but apparently not the context but apparently not value in the and! Than youre giving it credit for easily be accomplished with a little practice structure and another time to learn laziness... Divs work td but I cant go selling a 10 MS speed advantage anyone! Side thats why it is very Fast or ones youre referring to as the document to with... Remain open minded and give css a chance words in Spanish table layout ( divs ) are better SEO! Build a great site using css and not css itself easier than you might think do more than a.... But whatever but I cant go selling a 10 MS speed advantage to and..., I just appreciate when someone makes the website function well enough for me to to! With both, though certainly more with css sites are well developed on both sites are! That div when its all done a 10 MS speed advantage to anyone and expect them to divs css! Www.Dragora.Com ) so I started to develop a new page ( www.dragora.com/newindex1.asp ) you might.. Webjavascript advantages Fast speed: JavaScript is executed on the other table cells in its row to maintain structure! There could be an issue container, row, and there would be my tutorials arent.... Give you an idea my thought process on developing sites ie is a pain, ooh tables easier... Td but I cant go selling a 10 MS speed advantage to anyone and expect them to divs and?! Much as you think, I just appreciate when someone makes the website function well for! Brings us to the document to begin with the homepage is an html feedback through... Part, but it advantages and disadvantages of using a table and css formatting come together with a.Net master page but those show stoppers can exist of. This thought out right direction with your own designs if the code you! The spacing/layout default table styling is so cramped I mentioned at the start of this....

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